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99 rodeo/passport engine stall/no start intermittently

5.6K views 20 replies 5 participants last post by  1999Amigo4WD  
#1 ·
1999 Passport / Rodeo, 150k miles, every so often, more frequently now that the summer temperatures are here, dies. One of two things are happening, either the engine simply stops running while driving, or after driving it a little, even just 2 miles, and shutting down the engine, it will not start again. Either instance the engine will not start again for 60 minutes. Everything else not reliant on the engine running, is fine. Power is fine, windows, stereo, lights, starter, windshield wipers, heater/AirCon fan, etc. When it dies or is a no start, I have to wait exactly 60 minutes, on the mark(before summer it was 20 minutes on the mark), then the truck will start like there was no problem at all. Before this time frame wait, attempting to start the truck resulted in the starter turning the engine just fine, but no fire. Wait the time period and then start, fires perfectly.

Initially it happened more after a long drive and getting off the freeway or slowing down a little, it would just die. Then it started happening when in park with the A/C running. Now it happens without the A/C running, driving, slowing down, exiting the freeway, in park, turning a corner, or waiting in a drive through.

There is 45lbs of pressure in the fuel line, new filter and pump, so I am pretty positive it is not fuel related.

Could it be the ion sensor? Is there a way to test it?
Could it be that all my COP coils crap out at once?

These are the parts I've replaced in my hair pulling chase of this intermittent issue:
New Crankshaft sensor
new relays
new fuel sending relay
New fuel sending unit
new fuel filter
new spark plugs
new aircleaner
new ECM

I am at a complete loss...

Anyone else ever seen this?
Anyone?
Any ideas?
 
#2 ·
1st thing to check and make sure it is clean and ok is the egr valve and the pipe from the egr valve to the throttle body , you will have to remove the throttle body and you will see the pipe , try running a coat hanger thru it , i use a gun cleaner brush to clean them .

it may not be your problem but the zu's have a problem with the pipe stopping up with carbon .
 
#4 ·
The purpose of the EGR valve is to introduce a small amount of exhaust into the intake air stream under certain operating conditions to lower combustion chamber temperatures to prevent the formation of nitric oxide and nitrogen dioxide "NOx". If the EGR valve sticks open the engine will not idle properly because the air/fuel ratio is too lean. If it EGR valve sticks shut or is inoperative or the tube from the EGR valve to intake is plugged the EGR system is inoperative, this can cause fuel detonation ("pinging") and formation of NOx. It is very unlikely to cause your starting problem.

You do not have a Ion sense problem because the Ion Sensing ignition was not introduced until MY2000

It is possible for an intermittent electrical problem to disable the coils. The +12 Vdc reference to coils is daisy chained to each coil via fuse CB13 when the ignition switch is in the Run/Crank position. Next time you have the problem check the +12 Vdc reference voltage.
 
#5 ·
Timidbull,

Listen to Buster28. I bought a basket case 2001 3.2 Auto 4WD Passport last summer. With his and the rest of the boards help, it now runs nearly perfect. He is mentioning the wiring can be an issue, where it starts to break apart under the insulation somewhere. My 1999 Amigo had it bad. It would not start for weeks. Ended up being broken wires where the harness rubbed against the drivers side fender well metal support. Sharp edge against main engine harness. Bad idea.

My Passport had stalling issues because the engine was being flooded with fuel vapors when it sat in the heat, got a fuel fill up or sudden deceleration shifted fuel in the tank. Replaced the purge valve mounted to the engine and problem disappeared.

Buster28 showed me how to block off the purge valve and have have a running truck while I waited for the part.

Hope this helps and good luck!

Debbie
 
#6 ·
Buster28 said:
The purpose of the EGR valve is to introduce a small amount of exhaust into the intake air stream under certain operating conditions to lower combustion chamber temperatures to prevent the formation of nitric oxide and nitrogen dioxide "NOx". If the EGR valve sticks open the engine will not idle properly because the air/fuel ratio is too lean. If it EGR valve sticks shut or is inoperative or the tube from the EGR valve to intake is plugged the EGR system is inoperative, this can cause fuel detonation ("pinging") and formation of NOx. It is very unlikely to cause your starting problem.

You do not have a Ion sense problem because the Ion Sensing ignition was not introduced until MY2000

It is possible for an intermittent electrical problem to disable the coils. The +12 Vdc reference to coils is daisy chained to each coil via fuse CB13 when the ignition switch is in the Run/Crank position. Next time you have the problem check the +12 Vdc reference voltage.
Excellent advice! Thank You!
I will see what I have next no start, shouldn't be long till it happens. I'll let you know what I find.
 
#7 ·
Oh, also, Thank You Debbie. It sounds like Buster28 knows his stuff. I am sure hoping to track down the problem, I need my truck desperately. After hours and hours of my own diagnostics and parts replacing, not to mention the hundreds in shop diagnostic charges and no closer to fixing the problem, I am definitely willing to listen to someone who knows what they're talking about.
 
#8 ·
Make sure you have cam and crank data. If a sensor is cutting out it will cause the vehicle to stall and also not start.
 
#9 ·
Who is TJ said:
Make sure you have cam and crank data. If a sensor is cutting out it will cause the vehicle to stall and also not start.
A 3.2/3.5L dohc engine does not need a Camshaft Position Sensor (CPS) signal to start and run. This signal is used by the PCM to determine which cylinder should be the first to fire during startup but the engine will start and run without the signal, it just takes a few more crankshaft revolutions to start.

The Crankshaft Position Sensor has already been replaced.
 
#10 ·
Buster28 said:
Who is TJ said:
Make sure you have cam and crank data. If a sensor is cutting out it will cause the vehicle to stall and also not start.
A 3.2/3.5L dohc engine does not need a Camshaft Position Sensor (CPS) signal to start and run. This signal is used by the PCM to determine which cylinder should be the first to fire during startup but the engine will start and run without the signal, it just takes a few more crankshaft revolutions to start.

The Crankshaft Position Sensor has already been replaced.
Looks like you are correct. Thats my fault, should have looked it up.

"The camshaft position (CMP) sensor sends a CMP signal to the PCM. The PCM uses this signal as a sync pulse to trigger the injectors in the proper sequence. The PCM uses the CMP signal to indicate the position of the #1 piston during its power stroke. This allows the PCM to calculate true sequential fuel injection (SFI) mode of operation. If the PCM detects an incorrect CMP signal while the engine is running, DTC P0341 will set. If the CMP signal is lost while the engine is running, the fuel injection system will shift to a calculated sequential fuel injection mode based on the last fuel injection pulse, and the engine will continue to run. As long as the fault is present, the engine can be restarted. It will run in the calculated sequential mode with a 1-in-6 chance of the injector sequence being correct."
 
#11 ·
OK, here's an update. I got it to have the stall problem at home while sitting in the driveway. I checked the ignition fuse and there was power. I removed all COP and checked for spark, all plugs are firing. I checked fuel pressure, there is no fuel pressure this time. I shot starting fluid into the intake, she fired right up.

Ah-HA! A fuel system related issue, not ignition system related.

I checked at the relay, there is 12VDC to the fuel pump relay. No power if I connect positive lead of meter to fuel pump fuse and negative lead to ground, but if I connect negative lead to fuel pump fuse and positive lead to battery positive, I show 12VDC, is this correct?

Could it be I have a bad fuel pump that is overheating? I recently replaced it(about a year ago). I replaced it when I got the truck the sending unit was bad, and it all came together, pump, sending unit, sock etc. I wonder if the fuel pump itself is a faulty unit.

EDIT: I just removed the fuel filter, ran a jumper across the relay, an nothing from the fuel pump.

Is there a way to check power to fuel pump without dropping the tank?

If I connect power directly to the pump leads it should pump fuel, correct?

Second EDIT: I dropped the fuel tank, damn I wish I wouldn't have filled it the other day. I checked the leads, orange to black showed 12 VDC. I attached jumper leads to the appropriate orange and black tabs on the tank, no fuel pump activity. Did I troubleshoot this right?
 
#12 ·
timidbull said:
Could it be I have a bad fuel pump that is overheating? I recently replaced it(about a year ago). I replaced it when I got the truck the sending unit was bad, and it all came together, pump, sending unit, sock etc. I wonder if the fuel pump itself is a faulty unit.
If you installed an Airtex unit you probably have a pump failure, other members have reported premature failure of this brand pump.
If you can't hear pump motor run with 12 Vdc applied directly to the pump motor connections it is dead for sure.
 
#13 ·
Buster28 said:
If you installed an Airtex unit you probably have a pump failure, other members have reported premature failure of this brand pump.
If you can't hear pump motor run with 12 Vdc applied directly to the pump motor connections it is dead for sure.
I'm not sure if it was an airtex or not, I paid around $90 for it, so I know it was probably not a very good one.

I am a little confused with the wiring and where I should have power.
I have four wires into the pump connector
Black
Black/Orange
Orange/Yellow
Blue/yellow

I have
12vdc between the O/y and the Blk wires
.14vdc between the Blk/O and Blk wires
nothing from any others.

The schematic I have shows power coming into the pump from Black/Orange wire, is this correct?

Either way, when I connect power to the pump, any of the wires, nothing happens. I'm just trying to be sure before I buy another $200 part hoping it might be the fix.

Thanks!
 
#14 ·
Black Chassis ground point B8 (pump motor)
Black/Orange +12 Vdc from fuel pump fuse (pump motor)
Orange/Yellow Fuel Sending unit signal to PCM
Blue/yellow Fuel Sending unit return to PCM
 
#15 ·
Buster28 said:
Black Chassis ground point B8 (pump motor)
Black/Orange +12 Vdc from fuel pump fuse (pump motor)
Orange/Yellow Fuel Sending unit signal to PCM
Blue/yellow Fuel Sending unit return to PCM
There is another connector on the top of the fuel pump/sending unit assembly, it has three wires coming out of it. What is this for?

I'll verify in the morning, but it looks like I have two problems, I have no power to the Black/Orange at the fuel pump, but do at the fuse. Fuse is good, I checked. When I connected jumper leads from battery to the pump, positive to Black/Orange and negative to black, nothing happened.

If this is the case, I can change pump, no problem, tanks already out. Whats the best way to track the power issue to the pump, simply track back connector to connector till I get 12VDC?

I guess I need to get a test light. o_O
 
#16 ·
The 20 Amp Fuel Pump Fuse is electrically in series with the Fuel Pump Relay and the Fuel Pump Motor.
The Fuel Pump Fuse does not receive +12 Vdc from the 60 Amp main fuse until the Fuel Pump Relay is energized.
The Fuel Pump Relay is controlled by the PCM.
The PCM will only energize the Fuel Pump Relay for a few seconds when the Ignition is first placed in the Run/Crank position, otherwise when the crankshaft is rotating.

In view of the above, I feel you probably only have a defective pump and are not testing the +12 Vdc pump circuit correctly.

You don't need a test lamp you need a Digital Mulitmeter, a test lamp more or less useless for electronic troubleshooting.

The oval 3 Pin connector is for the Fuel Vapor Pressure Sensor, it is an integral part of the EVAP emission system.
 
#17 ·
Buster28 said:
The 20 Amp Fuel Pump Fuse is electrically in series with the Fuel Pump Relay and the Fuel Pump Motor.
The Fuel Pump Fuse does not receive +12 Vdc from the 60 Amp main fuse until the Fuel Pump Relay is energized.
The Fuel Pump Relay is controlled by the PCM.
The PCM will only energize the Fuel Pump Relay for a few seconds when the Ignition is first placed in the Run/Crank position, otherwise when the crankshaft is rotating.
That explains a lot. I was worried about power to the pump. I had my son help me today and I have power to the pump at key on. It looks like the pump is the problem. New one ordered, will be here Friday.

I have a multi-meter, just figured if I was chasing a power issue through the harness a test light would have been easier when contorted under the truck reaching for wiring. :)

Lesson learned....trying to save a few bucks using cheap parts=more time, frustration, and money spent replacing with good parts.

I'll let you all know how it turns out Friday when I get the part and the tank reinstalled.
 
#18 ·
Hey, good for you finding the apparent problem! If you are going to keep the truck, a full service manual or at least the one for the electric circuits is highly recommended, but sometimes if you put in the part and vehicle type plus the word schematic in Google and then look up to the options and click on images, lots of photos of the part will show up, but usually a few circuit diagrams too.

Good luck and with in the tank pumps, the best you can afford is recommended.

Debbie

Edit : hondapartsnow.com is an amazing resource for diagrams right next to the part. Just select Passport instead of Rodeo. Luckily you can still get oem parts this way. I just got o rings for my ac compressor R&R. A few dollars each, but they are exact fit, look for a fuel pump there before you install the one you have coming. Their prices are low for genuine Honda stuff.

Isuzu owners reading this: If you can find the Isuzu part number for any of their models, it might cross reference to a Honda stock number and then you can have an option besides aftermarket or NOS at a repository, for usually a premium.

Did a 67 Mustang (project my shop staff did in spare time) with NOS stuff. 20K in just parts.
 
#19 ·
Thanks all for the help, I ended up replacing the fuel pump and sending unit again this time with the best I could find, I think it was a Bosch if my memory holds true. Anyways, have not had a problem since with it stalling out on me.

Thanks!!!

on to the next repair...

PS, sorry for late response with resolution, I was out of town for a month.
 
#20 · (Edited by Moderator)
No problem, glad I could help and much more importantly you are back in business!

I've been away with working on my old 1990 LS400 after getting my new to me 2000 LS400, for my summer car.

Rebuilt the power steering pump and replumbed some ps lines. The return rubber hose was too short to get out of the way of the exhaust heat and hard cooked and finally cracked open and leaked like a sieve. It is a known issue with these cars and I sourced some longer Lexus spec hose and rerouted it away and heat shielded it.

While doing the repair, I found that the serpentine belt tensioner had failed but the belt still turned! The real pain is that to replace the tensioner you have to take out the alternator, mass air tubing up to the throttle butterfly and electrics near the passenger valve cover and the timing belt cover on the passenger side! Why? The engine is all aluminum and the serpentine belt tensioner is actually a three sided box where the open side overs the timing belt and supports that section of the timing belt cover. It is a structural component.

If you ever come across one of these engines, make sure the owner does the serpentine belt tensioner when they do the timing belt. I wish someone had let me know that when I did the TB on this car back in 2007.

Anyway, also helping my friend find an electrical gremlin with his 2008 ACR. He just bought it with 3K on the ODO and it is shutting down on him when he gives it full throttle from a hard launch, which is blowing the auto shut down fuses. It has full racing harnesses and a 1,000 lb downforce carbon fiber aero package from the factory. Full racing scrubs (slicks basically) on all four corners. 8.4 Liter and about 650 HP.

I suspect it is the known issue with these cars where the O2 sensor wiring shorts to the frame, it is on the same harness leg as the auto shut down circuit. It does it easier when the car has been running for 5 minutes or so. I explained to him that the 8.4 is shoving massive heat into the body and with the high heat the resistance goes up in the wiring. We'll track it back and find it tomorrow. Fun to work on because it is such a simple car from a wiring and sensor issue standpoint. Purpose built race car where they went cheap with wiring lengths IMO.

See pic here with key in the ignition with me about to swing the door closed and push the loud button! (big red ignition button)

Photo is washed out because the skylight was right over the car. The paint is immaculate with a deep gloss black with a red stripe that goes straight over the driver from hood to tail light.

Starting in shop.jpg
 

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