Let's Clear Something Up

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Let's Clear Something Up

Postby Iacocca64 » Fri Mar 26, 2021 12:37 pm

I have read more than a dozen posts about how the 3.2 and 3.5L engines are "notorious," for "burning" engine oil. While it may be a common issue, it is not a "top it off" issue. There is nothing normal about a gasoline engine losing this much oil in such a short amount of time.
I had an oil change less than two weeks ago and its already 1.5 quarts low.
If we were dealing with a diesel engine I'd say sure, stick a quart in it and move on down the road. Those engines, especially the older ones do "burn" oil. It is not normal in that sense either, but when you consider the only way to stop the issue is by replacing the injector o-rings, you'd say top it off too.

The problem is where the oil is going. The engine is not "burning," the oil away. There would be evidence of that. Smoke from the tail pipe or something.
If it were "burning," the oil it would do so in the combustion chamber and you would know by either seeing or smelling the evidence out of the tail pipe. I know evaporation or reduction can happen over time, but not this fast. Valve stem seals are out too, again, you'd see a big puff of smoke when you start it up.

If it were leaving the crank case and ending up lets say in the radiator some how, you would see the evidence. The only thing I can think of is that it is coming out of the engine through a seal. So, you start the thing up and let it idle and look for a drip. You look when you walk out to your truck and see if there are any spots on the ground. Then you trace the leak and fix it.

Like most of you, I don't see any drips. So, it must be coming out under different conditions. When the crank pressure is higher while driving for example. Also, the oil level change can hide the problem. If the level of oil gets below the leak you won't be able to find it. Again though, after topping it off, there is no evidence of a leak.
My best guess, which is such a dumb way to deal with this, is that it's coming out under driving conditions.

Now, I could set up a camera to watch the undercarriage while I drive and then review it, but that's just over kill and I don't have a gopro. And again, even if it were leaking only under increased load, you would SEE the evidence on the underside of the truck. There is no evidence of a high pressure leak on my truck.

My last great hope is that there is something else that uses the engine oil to operate that is causing the loss. I seriously doubt that is the case but I'm going to look for it. What I think is happening, is the oil is leaking into a vessel that sits lower than most of the undercarriage. The only place that makes sense is into the bell housing. Mine is a standard transmission. But still, the rear of the truck has no oil on it. The diff sits lowest and its bone dry. So where the hell is all the oil going???

All I do know, what I am certain of, is that the engine is NOT burning the oil. It's just not. And if it isn't burning oil it has to be leaking oil. That is the only explanation that makes any sense at all. And if there is a leak, it has to be fixed.
1 quart per week @ $5.00ea. = $260.00 per year.

I challenge anyone to provide an example, other than a rotary engine, in which it is "normal," for a GASOLINE engine to burn oil. It is a false narrative and it has to stop. These engine have a leak issue. Plain and simple.
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Re: Let's Clear Something Up

Postby Enemigo » Fri Mar 26, 2021 12:54 pm

Pretty sure this issue has been discussed on here ad nauseum and the issue has pretty well been pinned down. I know both Chevy, and Acura will tell you that burning a quart of oil every 3,000 miles is "normal" with respect to the 4th gen Camaros and the 2nd gen Integras.

The issue with these engines is the oil return ports are too few, and too small.
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Re: Let's Clear Something Up

Postby Iacocca64 » Fri Mar 26, 2021 5:21 pm

Enemigo wrote:Pretty sure this issue has been discussed on here ad nauseum and the issue has pretty well been pinned down. I know both Chevy, and Acura will tell you that burning a quart of oil every 3,000 miles is "normal" with respect to the 4th gen Camaros and the 2nd gen Integras.

The issue with these engines is the oil return ports are too few, and too small.



Like I was saying. There is no gasoline engine that is supposed to lose that much oil. Especially in only 3,000 miles between oil changes. That sounds like something the guys in the shop always said when they couldn't come up with an actual answer to the problem. It is not "normal" to lose any oil like that. I also have never seen the marketing campaign from either chevy or acura telling people, "it's okay, your engine is supposed to burn a whole quart between service intervals." Because that's not supposed to happen.

It's just not true. There should be no oil loss unless there is a leak or it is being burned off.
As for not enough oil return ports... I don't know where you heard that but again, it's just a false narrative. If there were too few return ports, what ever those are, the engine would have excessive oil pressure and cause the oil pump to fail frequently.

There is something else going on that has nothing to do with anything you said.
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Re: Let's Clear Something Up

Postby Enemigo » Fri Mar 26, 2021 5:36 pm

It's okay, you haven't been around here for very long. Someone might come in to clear it up for you, or they might not, since this has been discussed hundreds of times on here.

Either way it's disappointing as I can go 10,000 miles between oil changes on my 2011 and 2012 Dodge Caravans and not only has there been no oil loss, but it's not even black at that point.

I used to have a '96 Integra GSR and it was well established that it'd burn a little oil between changes, especially if you were running it to redline (8,000 rpm) all the time, like I definitely was.

At the same time I had a couple buddies with 4th gen Camaros that ran into the same thing. Asked the techs at the dealership we worked at, called other dealerships. Everyone said that GM says up to a quart between oil changes was within spec. I'm glad cars have gotten better over the years.

If you find out information that is better than that provided by the guys who worked in the Isuzu factory for some 30 years, please let us all know. You'll be an Isuzu hero for sure.

ETA: It might sound like I'm trying to be snarky, but I'm not. It'd be great to have a final solution.
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Re: Let's Clear Something Up

Postby Ed Mc. » Fri Mar 26, 2021 6:19 pm

Iacocca64 wrote:
Enemigo wrote:Pretty sure this issue has been discussed on here ad nauseum and the issue has pretty well been pinned down. I know both Chevy, and Acura will tell you that burning a quart of oil every 3,000 miles is "normal" with respect to the 4th gen Camaros and the 2nd gen Integras.

The issue with these engines is the oil return ports are too few, and too small.



Like I was saying. There is no gasoline engine that is supposed to lose that much oil. Especially in only 3,000 miles between oil changes. That sounds like something the guys in the shop always said when they couldn't come up with an actual answer to the problem. It is not "normal" to lose any oil like that. I also have never seen the marketing campaign from either chevy or acura telling people, "it's okay, your engine is supposed to burn a whole quart between service intervals." Because that's not supposed to happen.

It's just not true. There should be no oil loss unless there is a leak or it is being burned off.
As for not enough oil return ports... I don't know where you heard that but again, it's just a false narrative. If there were too few return ports, what ever those are, the engine would have excessive oil pressure and cause the oil pump to fail frequently.

There is something else going on that has nothing to do with anything you said.
-Jack


He's talking about oil drain-back holes that are drilled in the piston groove where the bottom set of rings (the oil control rings) reside. Absolutely nothing to do with the engine oil pressure.

There are not enough holes, so what happens is, the holes that are there get carboned-up and then you get excessive oil burning. This is exacerbated by a plugged or otherwise improperly-functioning EGR system, because without Exhaust Gas Recirculation, combustion temperatures will increase and this will create even more carbon deposits.

Isuzu's solution to the problem was to drill more holes in the pistons' oil control grooves. Better oil drainage back to the crankcase inhibits carbon buildup there. Around 2002 IIRC. You can tell if the affected engine had the upgraded pistons, because the PCV valve is a screw-in type.

You are operating under a false assumption that an engine cannot burn oil if you can't see it coming out of the tailpipe. That used to be true in the Old Days, but a "modern" catalytic converter will burn up most of the oil fumes and you won't see them out the pipe, just looking back as you drive. Have someone follow, or you follow while someone else is driving, and you might be quite surprised.

My first Trooper, an '86 2.3, had a lot of miles and burnt quite a bit of oil. 400 miles to the quart or maybe less, it's been a while. I could barely notice any smoke out the back until I followed it, and saw some. The cat was burning most of the oil. One day I went to drive it and it wouldn't go more than 35 mph. I pulled the cat out, and it was absolutely plugged with carbon. It ran a lot better after I fixed that!

So, that's the eventual fate of your cat(s). Hard to say how long they will run before getting plugged.

So you really should check your EGR and see if it's operating properly. You can pull a vacuum on the EGR diaphragm at idle, and if the engine stumbles, at least you know the passages are clear enough to do that. Might not be a bad idea to pull it and check, sometimes there's a bunch of carbon buildup with a teeny hole that lets by enough exhaust gasses to make the engine stumble, but not enough to be of any use while driving.

The ultimate solution is to pull the engine and either modify the pistons, or replace with upgraded ones. A lot of work.

An alternative is to try an engine oil with high levels of detergent, like Rotella oil for Diesels. Walmart carries it at reasonable prices. If you do a search here for "Rotella" you'll find the recommendations.

Walmart has a pretty good price rollback on Rotella T6 5W-40 full synthetic diesel motor oil. Your engine has bucket-and-shim tappets, so a slightly heavier-weight oil won't affect it. Still a 5W when the oil's cold.

https://www.walmart.com/ip/Shell-Rotell ... /102646780

You can also use some Gumout Regane Hi-Miles carbon-cleaning additive. It has higher levels of PEA (Polyetheramine) than Chevron Techroline.

Walmart carries that as well, under $5/bottle. Just run a bottle in each tankful, you may have to run 1000 miles with Rotella and carbon cleaner before you see any results.

https://www.walmart.com/ip/Gumout-Regan ... W/16888905

Another tip, for very difficult cases, is to pull the spark plugs and soak the engine overnight with a strong carbon-cleaning solvent.

Seafoam is good for that, so is Berryman's B12 Chemtool. Both are available in cans but you might find their spray versions more convenient.

Another option is a marine-rated carbon cleaner. I used OMC Engine Tuner for years to clean carbon out of the innards of 2-stroke outboards. You warm the engine, spray the stuff into each carb and it smokes like mad, then you shut off the engine and let it soak. Bombardier stopped production of Johnson/Evinrude products, and although you can still find OMC Engine Tuner it's rather expensive. Mercury/Quicksilver Power Tune is also Good Stuff and easier to find:

https://www.amazon.com/QuickSilver-8580 ... B000XBFL0K

In your case, I'd warm up the ol' 3.5, pull spark plugs and spray down all (6) cylinders. Use the contents of the can (or as much as you can get into each hole). Let it soak overnight, fire 'er off and be sure you're running in a well-ventilated area because massive clouds of smoke will ensue! :shock:

Take it out for a spin, get the engine warmed-up really well and then do an oil change with Rotella diesel engine oil, and dump the Regane carbon cleaner in the fuel.

See what happens, it's about the cheapest way to "doctor" the engine, what do you have to lose but a few bucks for additives and an oil change!

If after 1000 miles-or-so you don't notice any improvement, then likely the only way it'll be fixed is with a teardown.

Please don't discount the many many years of collective knowledge at this site. The is the Premier Isuzu site on the whole Interweb. We have the advice and counsel of someone who used to WORK for Isuzu and he knows all the Skeletons in the ZuZu closet.

We DO know what we are doing.

Here's a post that may enlighten you further:

https://forum.planetisuzoo.com/viewtopi ... &mobile=on

There are more, if you use this forum's Search feature.

Hope this helps.........ed
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Re: Let's Clear Something Up

Postby Enemigo » Fri Mar 26, 2021 7:02 pm

That's the thread I was looking for, but couldn't find it. Thanks Ed.
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Re: Let's Clear Something Up

Postby mudoilngears » Fri Mar 26, 2021 9:55 pm

Iacocca64 wrote:
Enemigo wrote:Pretty sure this issue has been discussed on here ad nauseum and the issue has pretty well been pinned down. I know both Chevy, and Acura will tell you that burning a quart of oil every 3,000 miles is "normal" with respect to the 4th gen Camaros and the 2nd gen Integras.

The issue with these engines is the oil return ports are too few, and too small.



Like I was saying. There is no gasoline engine that is supposed to lose that much oil. Especially in only 3,000 miles between oil changes. That sounds like something the guys in the shop always said when they couldn't come up with an actual answer to the problem. It is not "normal" to lose any oil like that. I also have never seen the marketing campaign from either chevy or acura telling people, "it's okay, your engine is supposed to burn a whole quart between service intervals." Because that's not supposed to happen.

It's just not true. There should be no oil loss unless there is a leak or it is being burned off.
As for not enough oil return ports... I don't know where you heard that but again, it's just a false narrative. If there were too few return ports, what ever those are, the engine would have excessive oil pressure and cause the oil pump to fail frequently.

There is something else going on that has nothing to do with anything you said.
-Jack


It would behoove you to listen to what folks are telling you. It’s a know and documented issue, with a known solution.
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Re: Let's Clear Something Up

Postby Iacocca64 » Sat Mar 27, 2021 10:28 am

I give up...
-Jack
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Re: Let's Clear Something Up

Postby paulevans76 » Mon Mar 29, 2021 8:33 am

Iacocca64 wrote:I give up...
-Jack


That would be wise, considering the correct answer has been provided. If you are fishing for confirmation of your theory, you won't get it.
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Re: Let's Clear Something Up

Postby namealreadyinuse » Mon Mar 29, 2021 5:16 pm

I run the 0-20w oil. You may find it uses less oil if the oil is thinner, because the oil control piston ring can more easily clear the thinner oil scraping it off the cylinder wall.
Plus it will give you slightly better mpg.
They are out now with the new GF6 oil specs, I plan to use it, will also give a mpg boost.

https://www.bing.com/search?q=GF6+oil+s ... S9&PC=W069
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Re: Let's Clear Something Up

Postby robs » Sat Apr 03, 2021 4:07 pm

come on. These motors burn oil, big deal oil is cheap. It's like complaining about having to top off the tires when the temp drops.

My 02 Sport has been burning about 1-1.5qts every 3-5K mile for the last 15yrs. Big deal. A quart of Shell Rotella 5w40 cost 7$ at walmart. A new truck (Jeep Gladiator JT) costs close to 70K

Top it off, move along and be happy that oil burning is the only major item these motors need to keep chugging along

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Re: Let's Clear Something Up

Postby namealreadyinuse » Thu Jun 10, 2021 7:30 pm

At a Cummins dealer, you can buy a special oil that is designed to dissolve carbon out of rings, etc...
Valvoline Premium blue restore
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/threa ... re.260699/

It actually works. You run it like regular oil for the entire oil interval between changes. You top it off with Blue Restore.
It is not a solvent, it is a special oil that dissolves hard carbon.
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Re: Let's Clear Something Up

Postby Oro » Thu Jun 10, 2021 10:30 pm

namealreadyinuse wrote:At a Cummins dealer, you can buy a special oil that is designed to dissolve carbon out of rings, etc...
Valvoline Premium blue restore ....


I actually went to buy some of that last spring and the only place you could mail/online order it from, Ryder Fleet Products, went out of business. I called the nearest Cummins dealer an hour away and they didn't have it and could only order it in pallet size lots. Frustrating...

Another way to skin the cat is to use Lubegard Biotech or something similar. It is made of the same type synthetic oil - ester oil - as the Restore. Redline oil is also mostly ester and theoretically, Redline 10w-30 should do the same thing if you ran it. I have been putting about 2oz of the Lubegard per quart of oil in my truck for about five or six years. The oil consumptions has reduced dramatically. It would go through a quart in as fast as 400 miles when I first got it. It's now a quart per 1,200 mi and still dropping. It's cheaper to do it this way, but much slower. I may buy two gallons of Redline 10w-30 and give it a try; not cheap but cheaper than the Restore.

The way it works is that unlike most other petroleum oils, the ester is highly polar - like water is. The petroleum oil (and most all synthetics, not just "dino" oil) is non-polar in its overall molecular structure. So it migrates to the metal surfaces, and it will "burrow" under caked-on carbon and loosen it. This also makes the machinery run slightly cooler as it increases the heat transfer through the metal surfaces a small amount. I use it in all my fluids now as I have seen it actually work; I use it in the AT, PS, diffs, and in all my cars. My truck runs smooth as glass and great power at 192k miles and WAY better than it did when I bought it 10 years ago.
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Re: Let's Clear Something Up

Postby namealreadyinuse » Fri Jun 11, 2021 7:26 am

Oro wrote:
namealreadyinuse wrote:At a Cummins dealer, you can buy a special oil that is designed to dissolve carbon out of rings, etc...
Valvoline Premium blue restore ....


I actually went to buy some of that last spring and the only place you could mail/online order it from, Ryder Fleet Products, went out of business. I called the nearest Cummins dealer an hour away and they didn't have it and could only order it in pallet size lots. Frustrating...

Another way to skin the cat is to use Lubegard Biotech or something similar. It is made of the same type synthetic oil - ester oil - as the Restore. Redline oil is also mostly ester and theoretically, Redline 10w-30 should do the same thing if you ran it. I have been putting about 2oz of the Lubegard per quart of oil in my truck for about five or six years. The oil consumptions has reduced dramatically. It would go through a quart in as fast as 400 miles when I first got it. It's now a quart per 1,200 mi and still dropping. It's cheaper to do it this way, but much slower. I may buy two gallons of Redline 10w-30 and give it a try; not cheap but cheaper than the Restore.

The way it works is that unlike most other petroleum oils, the ester is highly polar - like water is. The petroleum oil (and most all synthetics, not just "dino" oil) is non-polar in its overall molecular structure. So it migrates to the metal surfaces, and it will "burrow" under caked-on carbon and loosen it. This also makes the machinery run slightly cooler as it increases the heat transfer through the metal surfaces a small amount. I use it in all my fluids now as I have seen it actually work; I use it in the AT, PS, diffs, and in all my cars. My truck runs smooth as glass and great power at 192k miles and WAY better than it did when I bought it 10 years ago.

Yes the Redline has esters in the oil, from BOB oil guy site, the Redline is not as concentrated as the Valvoline restore.
The Lubeguard sounds like a good idea. Paying twice as much for a gallon is not bad considering what it can do compared to labor rates and fixing engine trouble. I have not tried to buy any of the Valvoline Restore yet, it seems they had an exclusive marketing agreement with Cummins? Frustrating to not be able to get it.
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Postby Oro » Fri Jun 11, 2021 2:01 pm

Yep, seems exclusively through cummins. Ryder Fleet Products had them online and you could order the restore for ~$80/gallon and a modest shipping charge. Last year when the pandemic started and I had extra time on my hands, I went to order some and they had JUST gone out of business. I have not found another mail-order source for it. I may try calling some Cummins dealers/service places again soon.

I have a price watch set at "camelcamelcamel" for the amazon price on the Lubegard products. Whenever they drop to low prices, which happens as the prices fluctuate a lot, I buy a couple or a quart so I always have it on hand.

My understanding is that the founder of Lubegard was the research director at Mobil for the Mobil 1 back in the 70s. He had the idea to do things with rarer synthetics that the company couldn't/didn't want to. I read other petroleum chemists say that all ester oils are not the same, so just being "ester" won't gaurantee cleaning. I don't know where the Lubegard "wax ester" falls on that spectrum, but it *seems* to work for me. I know it does lube better, reduce heat, and condition seals. If it does all that I'll still use it and the cleaning is a bonus.
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