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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hi All--
Long time lurker, first time poster. I've got a '86 TD Trooper (C223T engine) with about 175k miles. Noise started on the freeway at high speed and caused rough running as well (almost won't idle at all). Compression is on the low end but even across cylinders. I've never heard an engine with a confirmed rod knock, but that's what I'm starting to think it is. But short of pulling the head or the oil pan I'm not sure how to diagnose further.

Here are a couple of 17-second videos that feature the sound I'm hearing- hard to place it (everything's pretty loud) but I _think_ this sound is coming from the bottom end.

First video- higher idle speed more impressive knocking, but only from above
[BBvideo 560,340:2q4zw2qs]Rod knock video 1[/BBvideo]
Second video- lower speed, also listening from below
[BBvideo 560,340:2q4zw2qs]Rod knock video 2[/BBvideo]

Anyone with trained ears want to identify? I don't want to get into pulling the head or oil pan if I don't have to.

Thanks!
Cheers,
Bob
 

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OMG don't run it anymore until you figure out what it is. Sure sounds like a rod knock to me!
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Thanks Ed! Much appreciated. Is there any way of further diagnosing rod knock without pulling the head or oil pan? YouTube is full of videos putting a straw through the spark plug hole of a gasoline engine to see the piston rise and fall but I don't think there's any way into the cylinder for that kind of test in this engine. The injectors look like they're in the right place but I think this engine has a pre-combustion chamber so no luck there either.

Any other ideas for diagnosing? If it is a rod I don't think I have the fortitude (either time or money) to rebuild so I'd probably sell or part it out.

Thanks again!
Cheers,
Bob
 

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Drain some or all the oil and see if there are LOTS of metal flakes in it. Dennis
 

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robertlhawley said:
If it is a rod I don't think I have the fortitude (either time or money) to rebuild so I'd probably sell or part it out.
Bob,

I hope it's not that, but if it is--
I would not spend the time or money to have it rebuilt either. IMO, it's too much vehicle for the C223-T, at least in US on-road driving conditions. If I had this Trooper, I'd probably look for a larger diesel (4JB1-T or 4JG2-T), but those engines (at least the low-mile ones from Japan) have pretty much disappeared from the US market.

Whatever you do, don't send it to the scrappers. The engine, even in its current condition, is much more valuable as parts. There are several components that can be sold for pretty fair $$$. If you want, I can list the most searched-for items (based on what I've seen at isuzupup.com and here).

Jack
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Jack- that would be great! I'd taken a few looks at the various threads on people rebuilding and also replacing these engines, and yes- it does seem that the replacements are getting harder to find!

Add to that the fact that this rig has seen 10 New Hampshire winters and is beginning to show it, and the return on investment does not seem to be there. The rust isn't so bad that one couldn't recover it, if someone would be driving it in another part of the country... but for where I live I'd guess it's got max 10 years left.

I'd love to see a list of the parts you think are most valuable- the last thing I want to do is take something as rare as this and just junk it! I'll probably try to sell it all together if possible but parting it out wouldn't be that bad a hobby for a while...

Thanks again!

Cheers,
Bob
 

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JoeIsuzu said:
If you want, I can list the most searched-for items (based on what I've seen at isuzupup.com and here).
robertlhawley said:
Jack- that would be great! I'd taken a few looks at the various threads on people rebuilding and also replacing these engines, and yes- it does seem that the replacements are getting harder to find!
...
I'd love to see a list of the parts you think are most valuable- the last thing I want to do is take something as rare as this and just junk it! I'll probably try to sell it all together if possible but parting it out wouldn't be that bad a hobby for a while...
Bob,

Not in any particular order, but the most commonly-searched-for parts, based on my unscientific observations:
  • Turbocharger system (probably best sold as a complete kit -- including both manifolds AND the injection pump. Some buyers might pay extra for the valve cover to be included)[/*]
  • Rocker arm assembly[/*]
  • Pushrods - some buyers need a couple, others may want all 8[/*]
  • 4wd oil pan -- I've seen these go for $100-ish to $400. The oil pump and pickup may have value, but I think Jerry may still be able to get factory replacements.[/*]
  • A/C components - the compressor bracket is unique to the C223[/*]
  • Thermostat housing[/*]
  • Fuel injectors - typical selling price is around $75 for the set.[/*]
  • Power steering components[/*]
  • Alternator - with vacuum pump, unique to the C223.[/*]
  • Transmission - The diesel version of the 4wd MSG-5 was only offered in 1986-1987. There are occasionally 1981-1985 P'up owners who want to upgrade from the MSG-4 (4-speed) 4wd. These aren't easily shipped, but I've shipped a few transmissions.[/*]
  • Driveshaft slip yoke - The piece that slides into the tailshaft housing of the transmission. This is no longer available new, and it is a "must-have" for P'up owners who want to upgrade transmissions (the 1981-1985 transmissions are failure-prone). I've sold several of these, typically around $75 plus shipping.[/*]
  • Heater core - It may be getting too old, but if it doesn't leak, it may be worth selling.[/*]
  • Windshield washer reservoir and pump - if it works and doesn't leak[/*]
  • Glow system - wiring harness, QOS controller, relays, dropping resistor, and sensing resistor. I would not buy or sell used glow plugs, it's not worth the trouble.[/*]
  • Door locks, glovebox lock, ignition cylinder and matching key(s)[/*]
  • Window cranks - I've broken more than one, and these fit P'ups as well as Troopers[/*]
  • Tail lights - These fit P'ups as well as Troopers[/*]
That's all I can think of for now. Others may weigh in here with valuable suggestions.

Jack
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
JoeIsuzu said:
Not in any particular order, but the most commonly-searched-for parts, based on my unscientific observations:
Jack
Thanks Jack! This is really helpful. I'm still hopeful that it won't come to that as I hate to send anything to the junkyard, but we'll see!

Cheers,
Bob
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Just back in town and drained the oil through an old sock as a filter, and as expected; metal flakes.

I'm now treating this engine as terminal; it will still run (though I haven't run it since the videos I made and won't run it again) but knocks and I now see it as pretty certain that it's a bad rod bearing.

Rebuild is too much for me to do on this truck at my current life stage; I'll be either selling it whole or parting it out; I'll post separately about it hopefully soon but if anyone is interested (especially in the Northeast), feel free to PM me to discuss.

Thanks for all the help with this!
Cheers,
Bob
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Following this up, for posterity and if folks are interested- it looks very much like this _was_ a bad rod bearing. My daughter convinced me to keep the Trooper and do the rebuild as a father-daughter project. I've just gotten to the point where I can really tell that it's a bad bearing- the head is off and I can see/feel/hear the play by pushing the piston down after it passes TDC- took a quick video of it:
.

So, there we have it! Good to have an answer to the original question posed in the thread- YES!

Thanks again for all the replies and help.
Cheers,
Bob
 

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I'd say what we hear is definitely the source of the knock. But I'm not sure we know enough to blame it on a bearing. I admit, I've never torn an engine down this far and tried to troubleshoot. But this looks and sounds to me like the rod is coming loose from the crankshaft (the typical failure point in this engine).

Jack
 

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robertlhawley said:
My daughter convinced me to keep the Trooper and do the rebuild as a father-daughter project.
This could be a great thing. You will not be the first to be "talked through" a rebuild. And there have been other "Father - Daughter" projects. We're here with you. IIRC, there are / were upgraded rods available for this engine, the diesel guys can chime in and confirm or correct on this. Dennis
 

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A caveat on these old turbo diesels, the early connecting rods are weak and were known to break. They are called "1.0" rods. ZuZu came out with a "1.5" version of the rod and still had breaking problems. So, ZuZu went back to the drawing board and came up with Extra-Strong "2.0" rods. AKA "3rd Gen Rods".

I don't remember if there was a factory recall, a TSB, or "silent recall" on these, but there are ways to tell if the update was done.

You're certainly gonna need at least one rod, and if your engine has the early, breakage-prone rods, I wouldn't bother to put it back together without the upgraded parts.

Which can be quite difficult to find. Jerry Lemond might know if there are any left kicking around anymore.

Here's a very, very old 4x4wire.com discussion about those rods, good info there;

http://4x4wire.com/forums/ubbthreads.ph ... 35805.html

The poster who referred to "2.0" rods said that they aren't webbed, but are flat across. In the same style as Manley forged racing rods Ford used in the '03-'04 Mustang Cobra Terminators. Those engines can make up to 1000hp or maybe even more with stock internals! I rode in a friend's '04 Cobra with 605 RWHP and it was an eye-opener, to say the least. Now, your ZuZu TD ain't ever gonna go sideways at 80 mph like the Terminator did :shock: , but stronger rods will let the engine hold together and make a rebuild worthwhile. Maybe you'll get lucky and it's already had the upgrade.

You can post pics of the carnage after you get it apart, and we can tell you what we think about that.

I found this 8943242101 rod at the Isuzu Parts Center, no picture but there's a part number. Hopefully it's the updated rod:

https://www.isuzupartscenter.com/oem-pa ... 8943242101 Only $176.66 each!! :mrgreen:

Jerry Lemond could tell ya for sure the correct part number for the upgraded rods.

Here's a site I found with a remanufactured crankshaft, under $200 plus your core, should you find your crankshaft to be unrepairable:

https://www.cleggengine.com/80-89-isuzu ... 12680.html

Seems like a pretty reasonable price for such a rare engine; there are a few on eBay that are terribly expensive (over $600 shipped).

HTH & Good Luck with the rebuild...........ed
 

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Not sure which engine this is but my only experience with Isuzu diesels was an eighty something pup we had as a parts pick vehicle when I worked for a truck line maintenance/parts department. That thing was so damn slow it felt like you needed to throw up a sail to help it get going. This was in FL too so hardly any hills.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Thanks for all the info and encouragement! When I get the bottom end apart I'll post more pics/video and we can see what we have. My Trooper did have the additional oil tank mounted in the engine bay that I've heard is indicative of a rebuild with the newer rods, and the previous owner's notes said that it had been rebuilt "due to overheating"... But it sounds like when I get the rods out we'll be able to tell.

Thanks again! Definitely an adventure.

Cheers,
Bob
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Thanks again for all the helpful advice. This board is great! I'm slowly making my way to the source of the problem, today I got the oil pan off and managed to rattle the actual big-end of the rod. In case anyone wants to see me rattling it, here's a 30-second youtube clip:


But before I start pulling the pistons out and taking the bearings apart I want to get the camshaft and tappets out. Here's where I'm running into trouble- the manual simply says to remove the camshaft oil seal retainer (6 bolts) and then says to remove the camshaft, being careful not to damage the bearings. But after removing the 6 bolts, the oil seal retainer (and by extension the camshaft) won't budge. I've tried using as much force as I'm comfortable with, and I don't want to break something. It's acting like there's another bolt somewhere but I see nothing. Any suggestions or experience? Photos, one where I'm pointing to the retainer and another (in better focus) with a slightly broader context...

Actually I couldn't post photos. But they can be found here: https://hanoverhomestead.blogspot.com/2 ... -down.html

Thanks in advance for any help!
Cheers,
Bob
 

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Dude, there's no bearing in that rod anymore!! That's a Jillion Miles of free play! :shock:

Sounds like you had a lot of Krud floating around in the oil pan, and it may have plugged your screen, causing oil starvation. The rod bearings will be the 1st to go in that case. I dunno if that one rod could be salvaged, sometimes a machine shop can re-size the rod and hone the i.d. so it's like new. But rattling around rod-on-crankshaft can do a lot of damage. I guess we'll see what that rod and crank journal look like.

I'm not overly familiar with the C223 but on most engines the valve tappets better be out when you try to pull the cam, or the tappets will interfere with pulling the camshaft out.

OK, I found a repair guide at Autozone and they actually have a section for 2.2 TD mechanical. Here's what it says:

https://www.autozone.com/user/repairGui ... 5280062395

Fig. 4: Camshaft timing marks-2.2L diesel engine

Disconnect the negative battery cable.

Drain the crankcase. Remove the oil pan and the oil pump.

Remove the timing belt cover, the timing belt, the camshaft sprocket.

Remove the rocker arm assembly, the pushrods and the valve lifters; be sure to keep the parts in order for reinstallation purposes.

Remove the camshaft retainer-to-engine bolts and the retainer. Using a small prybar, pry the oil seal from the cylinder block.

Screw a bolt into the camshaft and carefully remove the camshaft from the front of the engine; be careful not to damage the bearing surfaces.

Inspect the camshaft for wear, scoring and/or damage; if necessary, replace it.

To install:

Lubricate the camshaft with engine oil and insert it into the front of the engine.

Using a new oil seal, lubricate the seal lips with engine oil and install it into the engine.

Install the camshaft retainer and the camshaft sprocket.

Install the oil pump and the oil pan.

Install the valve lifters, the pushrods and the rocker arm assembly.

Install and adjust the timing belt. Install the timing belt cover.

Rotate the crankshaft to bring the No. 1 piston to TDC of the compression stroke and adjust the valve lash.

To complete the installation, reverse the removal procedures.

Refill the cooling system and the crankcase.

Connect the negative battery cable. Start the engine, allow it to reach normal operating temperatures.

Check and/or adjust the idle speed and timing.


Seems so easy, don't it!! :drunken:

Well, I guess that settles it! Pull the lifters 1st. And the reason for screwing a bolt into the end of the camshaft is to give you something to pull with.

BTW in your pics I see a bolt head and flat washer at the end of the camshaft. Supposed to be there, or did the P.O. leave another present for you? Maybe that bolt needs to come out, too? It's certainly not long enough to grab hold of the way it is.

.
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Thanks! I think the oil starvation hypothesis makes sense. Some of the crud in there was probably the excess gasket-sealer stuff that was used the last time the oil pan went on (the bead around the outside of the seam peeled off pretty easily).
And thanks for the suggestions about the cam. The lifters have to come out after the camshaft, but with the engine upside down they don't interfere. I got it out- just had to be a little more confident about pulling and prying!
Next up will be to get those caps off and look at the damage. Probably next weekend...
Thanks again all!
 

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robertlhawley said:
Thanks Ed! Much appreciated. Is there any way of further diagnosing rod knock without pulling the head or oil pan? YouTube is full of videos putting a straw through the spark plug hole of a gasoline engine to see the piston rise and fall but I don't think there's any way into the cylinder for that kind of test in this engine. The injectors look like they're in the right place but I think this engine has a pre-combustion chamber so no luck there either.

Any other ideas for diagnosing? If it is a rod I don't think I have the fortitude (either time or money) to rebuild so I'd probably sell or part it out.

Thanks again!
Cheers,
Bob
Yes, Use a stethoscope or long 3/8" drive extension held up to your ear and placed on the engine at various locations. this will allow you to pin point the exact location of the faulty component.
 
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